Punk Planet (PP) basically started with a bunch of people on the Internet doing what people on the Internet do best, which is bitch and complain. We were bitching and complaining that we didn't think there was anything operating at the national level that was covering what really seemed to be exciting in punk scenes. Magazines seemed caught up in debates that, ultimately, were irrelevant as far as moving punk forward. I was in college and not really enjoying what I was doing there, so I decided, "Hey, why couldn't we do one of these magazines?” I posted the thought online, and, by the end of the weekend, a whole staff volunteered to do the work. About 2 ½ months later we had an issue. That's all fun, exciting, and great, granted, but the issue we had was horrible.

Wait, you mean your first issue wasn't full-size, 160 pages, and perfect-bound?

It was about 56-pages, black and white, on newsprint throughout, no cover stock or anything like that. I think the first issue cost $600 to print, which was a lot of money. I think we made half that money in ad sales and scraped the other half together. It helped that it cost nothing to print. For example, it costs us $11 to 12 thousand to do each issue now.

What's your print run up to?

We're doing about 12,000 of the current issue.

Does that vary from issue to issue based on distributor orders?

It slides upwards slowly with each issue. There's never really been a decline. It seems to slip upward a couple hundred copies with each issue, which is nice.

So you've got PP #50 coming up. Are you going to spill any secrets about all of the cool stuff that's going into it?

Well, there have been a lot of ideas floating around. I am amazingly uninterested in being self-reflexive. Way too many magazines pat themselves on the back when they reach milestones. But, at the same time, I don't want to completely disregard milestones, either. Fifty issues is an insane number to have reached. We want to do something that is special to the magazine; that acknowledges our roots without really talking about the magazine at all. We're doing is an all-Chicago issue spotlighting bands and people and movements and all sorts of things that are happening here in Chicago. It will be fairly representative of a normal PP issue with the exception that everything comes from one place. It might be twice as long as a normal issue, but that might not actually happen. That's kind of my dream, you know, "Yeah ... let's make it thick as fuck!"

I noticed that. PP #47 and PP #48 look the same as the other issues on the outside, but they’re noticeably lighter when you pick them up.

Yeah, we've actually just downgraded the paper that we're printing on. Unfortunately, that's the reality of things. The nature of the beast these days is that you just get fucked and fucked and fucked again by distributors. We were just getting killed on reship charges, which are based on the weight of the magazine and the new paper is half the weight.

[At this point, Dan and I talked a bunch of shit about certain distributors and how they're unknowingly (or knowingly) affecting publishers of all sizes. Names were named, specific dollar amounts and dates were mentioned, and truths were exaggerated on a grand scale. While all this makes excellent reading material, better judgment will keep it from print. For right now anyway we'll pick things up with Dan talking about PP's overall advertising philosophy.]

We know what we want to sell ad-wise. Basically, we want the kid who has a little record label, or whatever, to be able to afford a good-size ad in our magazine. As a result, $160 for a 1/2-page ad is really pushing it. I've noticed that since we raised the 1/2-page ad price, and, mind you, this is a raise by $10, we've been selling a lot more 1/3-page square ads than 1/2-page ads. We have to cross our fingers and hope that not everyone cries for mutiny when they see something like a modest increase on the cover price.

I was actually pleasantly surprised when I bought PP #48 the other day, because I had just assumed it was $4.95 all along. My surprise caused me to shout something at the clerk like, "What a deal!" Anyway, we purchased an ad from you a few months ago, and because of that, we recently received an ad rate sheet that looks to be hand silk-screened by Jay Ryan. It’s a very impressive piece, but I couldn't help noticing that there is very little sales pitch on it. It is mostly instructions for people who have seemingly already decided to buy an ad. Do you have to sell ads, or do you just sit back and check the mail every couple days?

We haven't sold an ad since PP #2.

Shut the hell up!

We're blessed that we're in a very niche market. There really aren't that many alternatives that are going to reach as many interested people. Basically, the secret to Punk Planet's success is that there are enough labels that want to advertise and want a regular place where they can count on the fact that their ad is going to come out when we say it is. Even when we started out and we were shitty, we came out on time. Getting it out is precisely what built up our readership and kept our advertising base strong. If you actually want to put something out that people are going to look forward to reading, that advertisers are going to want to advertise in, and that is really going to make an impact, you gotta just get it out.

I noticed in PP #47 there was a full-page ad for Manifesto (the record company who recently re-released much of the Dead Kennedys' back catalog). I don't want to rehash the whole Dead Kennedys debacle, but was there any debate as to whether or not to accept their ad? I've read some things that indicate Manifesto operates on a pretty huge corporate level. For example, the records are distributed through Navarre Corporation, which primarily distributes software manuals. Is Manifesto big enough to have violated your own advertising rules?

That's an interesting question, and to be honest, I can't really tell. We have advertising rules and those rules are set to stop major labels and multinational corporations from advertising. Every now and then things slip through. Manifesto taking out a full-page ad for the Dead Kennedys stuff ... I'm not losing sleep over that. Considering how many times now we've turned down Warner Bothers from taking ads ... I can't even keep count at this point. To me that's a bigger battle. Is it inconsistent to cover the Dead Kennedys lawsuit and then accept an ad from Manifesto? Well, we took Alternative Tentacles' ads the whole time and they didn't come out smelling too good on that thing either. We do try to keep things as independent as possible because that kind of consistency is necessary. Additionally, I want our advertising rates to be low enough that people who could not possibly advertise in any other magazine can advertise with us. That means having really low ad rates. I mean, a full-page ad in PP costs $450. That's like the daily coffee bill at a multinational corporation.

So you've never thought about charging major labels major label prices?

Never. There would be no point in that, because that's a slippery slope. Right now, no one really has enough stock in the magazine to really make any demands on us. Every now and then I get an e-mail that's like, "Hey I've been advertising with you for a year. How come you never interview my bands?" First, fuck you for asking. Second, so have a hundred other labels.

As far as you content goes, how much comes from blind submissions and how much is directly or indirectly solicited?

That's probably the biggest variable in any given issue. I would say about 1 1/2 years ago, the editorial staff created fully 3/4 of the content, either by contacting writers or by doing it themselves. In the last year or so, there's been an amazing shift towards more quality stuff coming in blindly. I'm able to point at the release of the book as being a big reason for that. For example, we are so amazingly not in need of interviews right now. Currently, we have probably a three-issues back-log interviews.

And that's interviews with pertinent people?

Yeah, they're good interviews with pertinent people. Lord knows that since PP #5 we've been swimming in shit interviews that have been sent to us. It's actually been challenging to say, "Okay. Understanding, we're probably going to receive X-number of pieces without us knowing about it, what do we do on the editorial side to make sure there is still a consistent vision and a consistent voice?” If you just rely entirely on things coming in from nowhere, you're going to lose a certain amount of focus and a certain amount of vision. There's not going to be a real editorial direction because you're just kind of picking and choosing versus actually creating.

What sort of criteria does a blind submission have to meet to qualify for the pages of Punk Planet? Obviously you guys blur the lines between what is and is not conventionally "punk," but is there a litmus test you apply to a piece to decide whether or not it is PP material?

Not really. The questions that we ask are, number one, "Is this any good?" If it is good, then we say, "Well, does this make sense in Punk Planet?" That's not asking, "Is this punk?" by any means. It's simply asking, "Is what is being said here going to be of any interest, whether that's negative interest or positive interest? Is it going to drop like a stone or are people going to walk away saying, 'Wow. That's awesome. I'm really glad I looked at that.'" That's the main bar that things must surpass. The thing that's kind of interesting about Punk Planet is that you can get some pretty unexpected stuff in there. The issue we just sent to the printer contains a short, but good, interview with a Nobel Laureate, who is in his 60s I think, has probably never heard punk rock, and probably never hopes to, but what he's saying is relevant and interesting, so fuck yeah, let's run it.

Tell me more about the message that was on your answering machine the morning of September 12?

A guy was just really upset with us for our coverage over the last few years of what I'm assuming was Iraq and our coverage of the Palestinian crisis. It kind of floored me, but it also made me say, "Wow. Someone gets pissed off about these things?" It was kind of interesting to hear someone who is really pissed about it, and to be so mad that, on the night of September 11, he decided to call Punk Planet and let us know how he felt. We have caller ID, so I tried to call him back, but he wasn't there.

It's got to be reaffirming in a way that you are affecting people, be it good or bad.

Oh, absolutely. There are times when you feel like you're just tossing things into a vacuum. It's great to hear things like that even if they are a little scary. I knew people who were getting death threats on an hourly basis, so it was a little shocking. In retrospect, though, it was kind of cool. It was like, "Hey, he hates us. And he hates us enough to spend some long-distance dollars to let us know."

There seems to me to be a shortage of medium- to large-size zines for folks to read these days. As easy as it is for a group of kids to write some songs, press 1,000 CDs, and get distributed or get some sort of record deal, you would think some of that would translate to publishing. What do you think are some of the major obstacles that keep print media so exclusive, or do you even think that there is a shortage of larger independent publications on the shelves today?

There is definitely a shortage, and I think there is a two-step thing that keeps it from being possible to have a successful mid-level or high-level zine. I would define what were doing as a high-level zine. I mean, we're printing 12,000 copies, which is jack shit in the magazine industry. There are two main hindrances, and they're related. First, where's that zine gonna go? Since Punk Planet has been around, how many independent bookshops have closed? How many newsstands are still around? It's all Borders and Barnes & Noble. So that's one problem. You're going into a place that is not particularly open and welcome to small titles. Sure, they'll probably stock them, but when you're on a newsstand where only the upper left two inches of your magazine is visible over the magazine in front of it, how is that ever going to sell? It's not. That's assuming that you can even get into those places. When Punk Planet started, there were two distributors whose entire mission was distributing independent publications into mom and pop stores, into newsstands, and into the chain stores. One of those has gone out of business, and the other one is probably on its way. At the same time these two distributors were up and running successfully, you had [two big industry distributors who shall remain nameless] starting up little small press spin-off distributors and those have all closed up shop, too. How do you get into those big stores? You have to go thorough a [huge, nameless distributor] or a [the other huge, nameless distributor] who are not that willing to take little startups.

We're trying to get picked up by [both huge, nameless distributors] right now.

We didn't get picked up by [keep it vague, keep it safe] until PP #45. It actually took the book coming out and the book doing well, and I believe someone at Barnes & Noble going, "Why don't we have this magazine?" for either [el distribution hefé] or [mein distribution führer] to give any shit about us. But if they do pick you up, they rape you with fees. So how can you afford that? We can barely afford that. I'm glad we got in when we did but it has almost run us under. From paying reship fees to paying every tiny possible thing that could possibly be billed out to you. We got in at the tail end of the mainstream zine explosion, which was really over by about 1996. People like Darby from Ben is Dead got a book contract, Chip Rowe [This is the Spinal Tap Zine] got a book contract, R. Seth Friedman [Fact Sheet Five] got a book contract. Jim Goad got a book contract. All these zine people got book contracts. Who's getting book contracts now? No one. When was the last time you saw a big, major, feature piece on zines like the ones that used to run all the time in the early 1990s? Never. It's hard, you know? I hate myself for having to say that those are things that we need. Fuck me for having to say we need Borders and Barnes & Noble. Fuck me for saying that what we really need is Details to do another giant zine story like they did in 1993. But at the same time, how else are people going to know you exist? That's the real conundrum right now. But at the same time, fuck yeah, do it.

If you can do it now, you can do it anytime.

Well, yeah, it's awful, but who the fuck cares if it's awful? Do it anyway. And that's the struggle. It's a struggle to say, "Should we care that conditions aren't the best possible for starting up a magazine right now. No we probably shouldn't." But at the same time you have to think realistically. This is such a fucking depressing interview!

Yeah, and we're a humor magazine.

Jesus.

What magazines or zines do you read? Rather, who do you keep tabs on from issue to issue?

From issue to issue, I'd say I watch Chunklet even though it's a very long pause between issues. Hit It or Quit It, Rocktober, Burn Collector. I'm in a really privileged position in that a lot of the people that are doing really amazing zines with amazing writing have ended up writing for Punk Planet. Whenever I get asked that question, I start rattling off zines and then I realize, "Whoa. Three-quarters of these people write for Punk Planet." Maybe I'm being a little self-serving or something. There's still a shitload of good writing going on. I don't want to make it sound like eight years has made me into this hardened businessman who only cares about advertising and distribution. Luckily, I have Mordam Records to handle distribution. I don't think I could've handled dealing with distributors forever. I do this because I love what I do. I love getting these stories out. I love being able to touch people in the way that people get touched. Or to piss people off. Either way, it's good and it's great. I couldn't imagine doing anything else.

Do you have a governing vision or do you just go from issue to issue? Do you look five years down the road?

Never. Punk Planet has always operated with a skeleton crew and with no budget. It's always been an issue-to-issue endeavor. Only in the last six months have we been able to start to plan an issue before the issue before it is over. It's always been, "Okay, PP #38 is done. What are we doing for PP #39?" Now, all of a sudden, because we've gotten something of a backlog of material, we've got PP #51 done, well, at least as far as what's going in it, and PP #50 is just getting rolling. Now that's a very, very new development, and it might not be one that sticks around for very long. There is a vision with Punk Planet to shed light on people working independently and creatively. It's for people working in music and art and politics and building bridges between all of those things and all of those people. Does that manifest itself in 5-year plans? No. Hopefully it manifests itself in every issue. Ironically, in the last three weeks or so, I've undertaken a plan that will either transform Punk Planet or run it into the ground. It started with the realization that we've been doing this for eight years and 50 issues. Those are insane numbers. I have now officially, in my entire life, done nothing, including grade school, for longer than I've done Punk Planet. It’s my longest single endeavor, and that's amazing. We're asking the real question, which is, "What are we doing?" We have a vision, and it's a good vision, and it's a successful vision. Wanna hear something absurd? The Utne Reader Alternative Press Awards have nominated Punk Planet for best magazine, two years in a row. Magazine! It's us, and like Autobahn, and The Ecologist, and The Nation, and Johnny Jackass and His Happy Band of Magazineers. It doesn't make any sense. Yet it's happened two years in a row. Obviously, we've done the right thing and made good decisions, and that's great. But at the same time, we've had a great run, now let's turn it on its end and let's see what happens. Why not?

So what's the deal? Are you going glossy on me?

No no no. There are obviously levels of aesthetic commitment and philosophical commitment that aren't changing. For example, I was asked the other day, "Why are the columns at the front of the magazine?" The answer is, they're at the front of the magazine because that's where they've always been. We put them there because that's where Maximumrocknroll put them. Beyond that, why are they there? What does it mean to a reader when the first section they see is the section that has virtually no editorial oversight, wildly divergent themes, and wildly divergent writing quality? It's been that level of questioning that's been going on with everything. For one, I'm isolating the things I'm good at from the things I'm not good at, and I'm finding other people to do the things I'm not good at. That's going to save my life. Since the book came out, two entire days of the week have been spent doing mail order. Why am I doing mail order?

Shee-it. We figured that out after the first issue. We all shouted, "Holy Shit! We need an intern!"

Yeah, I'm kind of a slow guy. We're basically going to question everything and see what happens. In the last month, I've been more excited about Punk Planet than I have since I got back from the book tour, which was amazing. That's one of the liberating things about independent publishing. You can do that. It would suck if Punk Planet tanked, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. So why not shake it up? That's my general feeling.

Any final thoughts? I'm all out of depressing questions.

I really don't want to make people feel like this sucks, because it doesn't. There's nothing better than waking up every day and being able to say, "Fuck yeah."

You guys have an office in Chicago, right?

Yeah we've had an office for about four years now. Before that, it operated out of my apartment, and before that, it was out of my bedroom. Most of the people that work on Punk Planet aren't in Chicago. It's a very small office. But it's awesome to say, "Wow. Not only can I do this, and not only can the other people who work on Punk Planet do this, and not only do I get to work with these amazing people who create this amazing stuff, but there are actually people who want to read it!" And there are enough people who want to read it that I am able to do this as a full-time job and others can do this as a part-time job. It’s great that it is possible, in these times of increased corporate control of everything, to be successful running things in the most seat-of-your-pants fashion possible. It’s staggering if you think about the way we’ve worked. It’s been eight years of scotch tape and bubble gum holding everything together.

You hide it well in your presentation.

That’s part of the idea. You can create something and present it in a way that you can’t tell that goes on behind the scenes. Things shouldn’t look like shit. There’s no excuse, nowadays, for things looking like shit, unless that’s your intention.

In which case you can use a Smudged Xerox font.

Well, there’s no excuse for the Smudged Xerox font, either. Smudge it on a Xerox machine if you want that look. In this day and age, I have no time for someone whose magazine looks like shit. If you don’t know what you’re doing, that’s totally fine, just don’t try to. Learn as you go along. Keep it simple and then throw things in as you go. Don’t try to emulate people who have been doing this professionally, just keep it simple. Independent publishing is so interesting because it can support so many different things and that there are people dying to read this stuff. As rough as things are right now, it’s all the more reason for people to be going out and trying new things. Lord knows we need it. Look at the crap that’s being produced these days. I was at the grocery store the other night looking at the magazines on the end cap, and it’s a sad state of affairs when the most interesting magazine on that rack is Martha Stewart Baby. And that’s because it didn’t have a celebrity on the cover and it didn’t have gigantic cover blurbs and it didn’t offer ten ways to make your man feel better, or eight ways to lose some weight, or 18 things this celebrity did wrong. It actually was an appealing thing.